Carol,

A clan is made out of brotherhoods. See it as subdivisions inside an organization. Now in order to understand the geographics you would have to know that in the 14th century the area's named as Montenegro and Herzegovina were different in name and size when it comes to their borders. Herzegovina was called Zahumlije (The hilled landscape) and fell for a while under Montenegro and their clan system.

Take in mind that the principle of Stathood we now nowadays is relatively young. We know States since the 19th/20th century. Back in the 14th century they worked more regions etc.

Trebinje today is in Bosnia. THe best way to determine ones clan/brotherhood is through either direct genealogy going back, or talking a living relative up untill the 3rd line to see if they are known with what clan/brotherhood etc.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Sergej, your explanation did help somewhat.

But let me see if I understand clearly - using the Ljubibratici as an example - the clan could have been composed of the Ljubibratic brotherhood and other brotherhoods, perhaps of different surnames - as well? I am not speaking of time periods or geographic areas here, but only of family surnames. I guess what I am asking is, if I have this Ljubibratic family, some of which immigrated to America in the early 20th century, would it be proper to say that they were from this Ljubibratici clan of Herzegovina? Or could some Ljubibratic families have been from another clan? Is the surname of a family a way to determine the clan or the brotherhood?

And why would knowing who is the clan or brotherhood be important?

Carol

Yes there are different brotherhoods with different surnames that belong to a clan. This is possible. Also the system works very tight with genealogy/family lines. They most of the time share comon ancestors.

Its very well possible that the Ljubibratic that migrated to the US belongs to that brotherhood. In Montenegro clans know each other as do brotherhoods. Its a general given. The clan system works like the Scottish one in a matter. Clans even today can have strife with each other. Knowing what clan you are makes your research easier, you have a geographic fix and most clans keep family records.

Not only Serbs work with clans. Albanians copied the custom as well. A family name "can" tell a lot about a family.

But again I must stress, trace back the ancestry or get in contact with a living relative through research that can inform you about the clan/brotherhood.

Ok. I understand a little bit about Scottish clans, so if the 'similarity' holds true, then brotherhoods would be similar to the septs that make up the clan. Members of the Scottish clan septs did not always have the same surname as the clan name.

Thanks a lot for the help, and for your suggestions. It has given me a lot to think about and will help me decide what to do next to find the family I'm interested in.

So now that I have that to think about for the Ljubibratics, maybe you can give me some suggestions about the Likic family I need to find.

The Ellis Island passenger arrival manifest shows my ancestor of interest as Milica Likic. She listed her nearest relative in her native country (they are from Ljubinje, Herzegovina) as her mother, Mare Ticit - is Ticit really a Serbian surname? I can't find anything even similar to it, and assume the immigration officer wrote the name as he thought it sounded, rather than as it properly should be spelled. The handwriting is pretty clear for change, so I am fairly (but not absolutely) certain of the spelling on the manifest. Any suggestions as to what it could be?

Also, I'm not sure of Milica's birth name as I have seen it given as Rago and Redzo. I know Redzo is a Serbian name, but are you familiar with a Serbian name Rago?

Thanks again, Sergej. You've been a big help.

Carol

Yes the Serbian patriarchial system is almost identical to that of the Celtic Sept. Some minor details excluded here and there.

Likic is from Montenegro and have traces in southern Serbia as well. Ticit is also from Montenegro, Tivat.

All the names you mention are Serbian from Montenegro.

Hope this helps, if you need detailed help in writing the archives I would advice SGS membership if you didn't apply yet. You can then post more detailed info on the SGS forum and we can help you out better.

The major diference between clan and brotherhood is that brotherhoods, many of them, make the clan, and all brotherhoods in clan have the common ancestor (not always).It is like a pyramid. The establisher of clan have the sons, they have his sons, and etc. For instance, the establisher of Vasojevici clan was Vaso, and clan get the name Vasojevici-from Vaso. He have successors, and some of them have also name Vaso, so their brotherhoods also have the Vasojevici name. Clan-Vasojevici, brotherhood-Vasojevici.

You also query about surnames Likic, and Ticit.

The Likic are from Likica Do (Piva) on the Montenegro-Herzegovian border. They are from Drobnjaci clan. Some of them displaced in Gajtan (South Serbia), and in Pljevlja.
The Surname Ticit I did not find, maybe Ticic?

Ticic- Tica, Prekornica i Ljubotinj (Cetinje); Tičevina (Dobrilovići), Pljevlja; Konjsko (Е½upci), Trebinje, ogranak Raičevića (i kao: Trećac) doseljenici iz Grahova (Kuči); Podgorica

Thanks for the infomation, Brane. I have looked at my notes on the name Ticit and I wrote it wrong in my previous post - the passenger manifest definitely looks like it should be Ticita. Maybe the 'ta' on the end of the name should really be a 'k', which could look like 'ta' if the handwriting wasn't very good. The immigration officer may have written the name as it sounded - Ticik. Would Ticic have a 'k' sound or the 'ch' sound at the end?

I am still looking for relatives in the U.S. who might know more about what the names should be, and which clan they belonged to, but I still appreciate all the help from Sergej and you.

Carol

Check immigration records of other relatives that travelled with him and other documents that you have such as postcards etc. You do need to be sure about the correct spelling of the surname otherwise it can thow you off track.

I suppose that Ticit means Tičić in origin,then Ticic have a ch sound on the end.

I forgot to say something about Ljubibratici. The Ljubibratici was known as a very good warriors, and also, a lot of them was a priest, and they still are.