I just talked to her on the phone and will give her your number.

Thank you!

Hi Sergej,
I hope you are well today.

Just to let you know I have not yet heard from Danica. I do often browse the other topics and noticed one in the Serbia section regarding Obrenovic, dated yesterday. I could make out some of the words (at least I am starting to pick up some Serbian!). Is this pertaining to my branch? If so, would you mind letting me know the exact message?

Any news at this point will be helpful - I have so many little pieces of the puzzle but as of yet no real link to put everything together. Anything regarding the Orlov side?

Thanks and best regards,
Christina

Hi,

Its national holidays in Serbia so everything is closed. Danica will try to respond to you this week.
I am waiting for a contact in Russia who knows more about the Orlov side.

Hi,
Thanks!

Christina

Hi Sergej,

Hope all is well with you! I wanted to let you know I have done and received partial results form DNA testing. I did the mtDNA test and the HRV1 results have been given to me. HRV2 should be out in a couple weeks. I will also order a yDNA test as I realized my son Nicholas, is the direct male link...since I have no known relatives, to dat, on my Mother's side of the family.

I was happy to also contribute the rsults to National Geographic's project! It's actually thrilling to be a part of this incredible journey! Totally cool!

I have uploaded my results into a global DNA database and have had people contact me, but realistically, HRV1 is very generalized. HRV2 will drill down somewhat further.

Any news from your side or Brane? Russia?? I have not heard from Danica, yet.

I do have news from my end with my efforts with the Greek consulate and the MFA in Greece. I will let you knwo the details, but it is a bit lengthy for here. I have however, hit a bureacratic "glich" which will take the Canadian government a few months to fix before I can go further!!!

If you want to know the details and it may be helpful on your end, then I will send you a PM.

I hope to have news from your efforts soon!

Best,
Christina

Christina,

I talked with Danica and she said she emailed you but she got the email back empty. Perhaps you can PM her, she told me she has some info for you. I will try to get her cell number for you so you could perhaps call or text her.

No response yet from Russia.

Hi Christina,

As I do not know who else is involved in checking things out I will copy and paste the email correspondence on the member forum otherwise I fear things will get overcomplicated. Lets continue after this email there please. I understand your impatience but it is greatly desired as this is not something to rush about.

Professionally I do not see a link between a surname Knezevic from Serbia and the Cossacks. There are a lot of Knezevic in the Balkans, most of them not related and none of them that belong to nobility. There is no such thing as a internal system of nobility, either one belongs to nobility or not. The information that your mothers father was Cossack is new to me, I think it would have helped knowing this earlier before research was started. I also wasn”™t aware from the fact that your grandfathers family migrated from Serbia and Austria to Russia approximately 200 years ago, this is also new information to me. If your grandfather had a Dutch passport then you can review this online with the Dutch archives as they are all digitally available at http://www.en.nationaalarchief.nl/

My Russian colleague (an esteemed and well respected historian) has said he is not interested in debating the research any further, as according to him it is a closed case. There is no correlation in the data provided as according to him the title is not genuine in other words non-existent. The only titled family in Russia are the Orlovs.

I think it would be wise to stick with the facts first, or at least the facts as I know them now. Danica told me that the dates on your mothers passport are not the same as those on the records retrieved from the municipality in Belgrade. This poses two problems. The first is that we are not sure if this is the same person, as your mothers passport has a different name and date of birth. The second problem is that according to law we cannot extract other documents, from the archives until it is proven that the person we found in the municipality documents in really your mother or someone else. This is the law here; which inexplicably includes all archival documents including those of Kalemegdan! We will respect this and I have talked with Danica about this, we need proof in order to create a correlation.

Danica said she would email you with more information.

Regards,

Sergej

From: Christina Athans [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: zaterdag 20 september 2008 3:35
To: 'Sergei Oudman'
Subject: RE: Noble calendar. Petersburg Genealogical Portal

I agree with you on many points below - and let”™s wait and see…a wise historian once said a true historian knows how to discern between the facts and the truth!

Cossacks retained quasi-independence under the tsars in return for the defence of Russian interests. They had their own noble system, (Don, Kuban Zaporyevskoye all had their own internal system of nobility) as well as receiving titles from the tsar for outstanding service and bravery or other services rendered. As fiercely independant as they were, they were also loyal to their tsar. Their social structure is actually quite similar to the great Scottish highland clans, each with their own “lords” and nobles. Since my mother referred to her father as a Cossack and her origins on that side as Cossack, I do believe this is an area to explore: she never referred to him as Serb or Russian but Cossack. This is why I am learning as much as I can about their history and social structure. In some ways Quebec is very similar: a recognized “Nation within a Nation” with many governing privileges and authoritative powers the other Canadian provinces do not share and are unique to the French speaking population here. This is not unusual in history.

I have found several sources stating that, (and lets use this spelling for the sake of discussion), Knezevich”™s in Russia migrated approximately 200 years prior from Serbia and Austria. There are also several branches of Knyezev from the Caucasus who ended up in Serbia (becoming “knyezevich”) and surrounding areas from 1918-1921.

14,000 Cossacks arrived in Belgrade on June 1, 1921. They left from the Crimea, were processed in Constantinople and spread out from there, some landing in Lemnos and others moving to Paris and Belgrade. Also, every white Russian “refugee”, regardless of rank of social status, from 1917 onwards had to have a passport issued by the Hague and were under the protection of the government of the Netherlands once they left Russian soil. Since no one country yet recognized the Bolshevik government and the Russian Empire had ceased to exist, their Russian papers were not valid anywhere. Many of these passports ended up being a lucrative black market business in Constantinople. The point is this: no one could get out of there and into another country without the Hague issued passport. This is a documented administrative trail and a very significant area to look at. This is also a firm arrival date and definitely worth checking out. They included Cossack military as well as young cadets from several academies and civilians from the Crimea and Caucasus region. But perhaps my point is moot as I am certain this would have been one of the first leads a professional researcher would have checked! My apologies then!

As for the Belgrade documents, or as I now refer to them as the “Holy Grail” of information: I have been waiting one month for Danica to email me what she has already from the Municipality, but she has had some IT issues. The long Church documents are ready and she was to pick them up this week, but did not have time. I hope to have everything by Monday as this is dragging out way too long, but I also understand Danica has other responsibilities…am trying to be patient!!! Forgive my North American sense of urgency…but I also have other people waiting for the information.

As for the name Knezevich, yes it does translate to Prince”™s son; in Russia it also can mean a vassal to a king: someone who has sworn allegiance and “belongs” to the sovereign. It is still a fascinating subject and a fascinating area of history to explore! I appreciate your comments, knowledge and insight, as always and let”™s hope Danica can send me all the docs she has accumulated soon. Once we have that, the next step will be from the dates provided: marriage certificate and my grandmother”™s baptismal documents from Kalemegdan as well. Probably will have to request from the Synod again, but they granted their decision relatively quickly, so I am pleased about that and optimistic.

So you know, I received the Certificate of Canadian Citizenship for Mom yesterday and have sent to the Greek Consulate, as they requested. I will let you know what comes of this as well!

I intend to be a part of every step of this research and my sending you the link was simply because I remembered you had a researcher checking into this, - I want to be sure no stone is left unturned and the truth, whatever it may be, will be what it is: whether it be a long shot or not, it must be examined. Would this researcher be open to speaking with me at some point? Communications must be open and fluid amongst all of us and if he/she is researching my family, I would be grateful to be kept in the loop as to where they are looking and what has led them to seek out information in those areas. By the way - I saw he /she posted a question on a Russian forum but he was looking for Ivan Grigorievich Orlov…the reason I know it is our quest is because he mentioned my Mother”™s name in the note. I do not believe my grandfather carried the name Orlov…not surprised it was a dead end.

Have a great weekend,
Christina

________________________________________
De : Sergei Oudman [mailto:[email protected]]
Envoyé : September 19, 2008 5:23 PM
À : 'Christina Athans'
Cc : 'Danica Radisic'
Objet : RE: Noble calendar. Petersburg Genealogical Portal

Hi Christina,

Knezevic is a Serbian/Croatian name and comes from Knez derived from the Latin Comez. It is used in different forms in Slavic lands and if a person is named Knezevic then it would mean son of the knez. However, this does not mean they are related in any way because the name is actually being used very frequent. The same in Russian.

Nobles are either nobles or not, there is no such thing as a quasi independent status. The Caucasus is a very chaotic region and very big. The name we found thus far in the research is not listed and there has not been a Knyaz with the name and date provided on the Kalemegdan papers. Lets see what the originals say before we spend energy on things that might not be relevant whatsoever.

Regards,

Sergei

From: Christina Athans [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: vrijdag 19 september 2008 22:41
To: 'Sergei Oudman'
Subject: RE: Noble calendar. Petersburg Genealogical Portal

Hi - Me too, of course. They are ready - Danica just has to go get them and I am anxiously awaiting this.

I sent it because you said you had a Russian researcher who did not find my family in the books in Russia - there are many “books” and certainly within the Cossack dominated states with nobles not listed in a central registry, due to their quasi-independent status. I have been doing a lot of research in Russian with the help of a really good software program and have come up with much more insight into the structure of nobility according to region. I have also been in contact with some sources there myself and with the Russian Orthodox Church in Montreal to gain some more insight into the structure. Most helpful!

Have a great weekend, Sergei!

Christina

________________________________________
De : Sergei Oudman [mailto:[email protected]]
Envoyé : September 19, 2008 2:00 PM
À : 'Christina Athans'; 'Danica Radisic-Visnjic'
Objet : RE: Noble calendar. Petersburg Genealogical Portal

Hi,

I think its a bit of a long shot. I am more interested in what the Belgrade documents say.

Sergei

From: Christina Athans [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: vrijdag 19 september 2008 4:12
To: 'Danica Radisic-Visnjic'; 'Sergej'
Subject: Noble calendar. Petersburg Genealogical Portal
Importance: High

http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.petergen.com/dk/dkfam9.shtml&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.petergen.com/search.shtml%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26pwst%3D1&usg=ALkJrhhdzeP81e4pwgfihKdd4skzXmlIOg
Hi - was wondering if either of your Russian researchers came across this: St. Petersburg Gubernskoye Noble Collection. Supplemental lineage book of Russian novbility. The name Knyazhevich is on the list (one Russian variant of Knezevich). Just checking because there is an email address and if someone has already written them, then I”™ll wait to hear back as to what information they received on the name. If not, I will write them.

Thanks!
Christina
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Hi Sergei - you may be right on the mis-translation - I think the original documents in Cyrillic will clear this up once we receive them, no?

Although my grandfather may have come from Russia and was Russian Orthodox, as in Canada, there are many nationalities in Russia….has he looked into the Crimea and Caucasus regions? I have accessed several Russian sites indicating many noble families are not in the Russian Nobility index. Whether this is confirmed info or not I cannot yet say. As far as I am concerned, these are simply leads to look into.

The variations of the name Knezevich in Russia (the Caucasus region in particular) are many and I did find information on an old Serbian/Austrian noble family named Kniazhevich who migrated to the Caucasus about 200 years ago and integrated in to the Cossack culture. Is there a link….I cannot say yet, but we are agreed that leads must be confirmed! The 14,000 Cossacks who arrived in Belgrade June 1, 1921 fit the time period and they included military officers from nobility as well as cadets from the military academy…..there must be records in Belgrade as we have a definitive date to go on.

I am pleased the Russian Nobility Association has agreed to accept my request for research help….let”™s see what comes of it and I will certainly let you know! As well for the Synod! Danica has been under the weather the last couple of weeks, but says she is better now so hopefully, we can get back on track!

Take care and thanks!
Christina

________________________________________
De : Sergej [mailto:[email protected]]
Envoyé : Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:13 AM
À : Christina Athans; danica@rodoslovlje.com
Objet : Re: Notes from some research

Hi Christina,

I read through the stories you send me. The dealings regarding the Obrenovic family are all well known in history. So there is not much new in there for me at least. My Russian collegue said that the name as we have it does not match any documents in the Russian Nobility index, and that the title that is being used has never been heard of. So I do not know what this means, it could be the title is incorrectly translated.

With regard to the Russian forum in the attachment, ask them for their sources; preferably archival because its a bit too much conspiracy for me but no hard facts.

Keep me abreast on Synods request.

Best,

Sergei
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Christina Athans wrote:
Hi Sergei - hope you are well!

I have sent this to Danica - some research I have been doing in the attachment….just an FYI for you and perhaps some good leads for your Russian researcher.

The good news is the Synod has approved our request….not really surprised since we already possess the official Extract.

Best,
Christina

________________________________________
De : Christina Athans [mailto:[email protected]]
Envoyé : Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:37 AM
À : 'Danica Radisic-Visnjic'
Objet : Notes from some research
Importance : Haute

Hi Danica,

Hope you're feeling better!

If you are well enough, I hope we can get back on track with the research so, at your request, my friend, I am "reminding" you to scan and send any docs you have to date, as well as popping them in the courier of your choice so I have the hard copies in hand, please.

In the attached doc are just some notes from sights I visited: letters of the Tsarina referring to "her Kniazhevich"…with many different spellings…of course!

Notes on several Kniazhevich's which may, or may not be related, but good leads.

Notes on Cossack regiments exiled after the revolution to Lemnos - there is some very good info from Cossack websites. 14,000 Cossacks came to Belgrade June 1, 1921. We have a firm date, therefore there is a basis to go on. I downloaded a pretty good Russian translation software and have been able to find this info with this tool.

Many nobles in Russia are not on official lists - over 880,000 nobles in all

Researching and using the Alexander Palace Forum I found a posting by Alexander Obrenovich this month….why he is doing this now is interesting, but what is more interesting are his comments of the Black Hand, under Karadeordjevich hiding and destroying documents related to the Obrenovich family. Were you personally aware of this since you know him?

Want to discuss all of this with you so hopefully today, tomorrow or Saturday we can make some time. Yours and Sergei's Russian researcher should be looking at the Caucasus and Crimea….

Also - very important: I wrote to the Romanov Family Association who heads up the Russian Nobility Association in America. One must write and gain the approval from the Imperial family members who head up the association for research help, based on the information provided and their evaluation of the validity of the request. They have approved my request!!! This is very encouraging because they do not approve just anyone claiming Russian nobility. I have sent them as many details as I can, including Mom's baptismal extract, but you can appreciate how much I need those other documents you have, and will have soon.

What's up with the Synod docs? Timeline please!!

Hugs!
Chris
xxx

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Hi Sergei - Thanks so much for clarifying this for me! As a foreigner, I certainly do not wish to offend anyone nor try to work outside the process. This makes perfect sense!

That being said, Danica did not indicate the request was for the family living abroad: only that she was doing research, so as a Serbian, citizen it seemed odd to her as well. We will just have to be patient and wait for their answer.

I know the anomalies in data - partly due to the western vs. old calendars used….example: my father was born May 23, 1922 but in Greece, this is June 4, 1922.

Other errors Danica and I determined through the municipality were simply transcription errors: The original documents Danica said are in calligraphic handwriting and she had a very difficult time reading some information, such as my Grandmother”™s full name, which is very long as well, but she very clearly saw the same information for my Grandfather in the Old Book. It is as on the extract you now have. Mom”™s birth date on Municipal transcript document is 1923, but she was baptized in 1928! In the Old book Danica saw it is 1928. We deduced they miss-transcribed and 8 for a 3 in the year. In Greece, she has yet another birth date of January 1, 1924. This was done to make her older when she escaped from Yugoslavia, but all the other information is correct. Also, she has so many first names - God…

I am still waiting for her original Canadian citizenship papers to send to the Greek Foreign Ministry Archives. Her tracks were covered up very well with help from Greece, the Brits and US Embassy. The Canadian citizenship papers are necessary for the Greeks to open her sealed files, which are still classified after all this time: since my father shortened the name from Athanasiadis to Athans in Canada, I have to show that she is one and the same. In those files are the diplomatic and personal correspondence of George Stratos, Prince Raoul Bibica - Rossettis - this may be a a good lead as well. Rossettis was a very good friend of Mom”™s family…he was a member of the League of nations, a foreign minister in Belgrade at the time Mom was living there and later, Greek Ambassador to Canada. As a minister in Belgrade, he knew her family very well and was instrumental in obtaining a position for my father at the Greek Consulate in Montreal upon arrival in Canada.

I am so confused as to whether my grandfather took his wife”™s name…perhaps a name change to protect his ID? Or, whether they truly were cousins? I cannot answer yet, but the fact that he is listed as a “Foreigner”, Russian Orthodox and not a citizen is a big lead. From the Birth records, Danica should be able to find marriage and immigration info. Also, Grandmother was baptized in Kalmegdan…we need her records too. She will be easier to trace because of this. When you say the Russian researcher is checking the tree sidelines - which tree please? Perhaps if you have a family tree I am not aware of I may have heard of a name somewhere.

We know both my grandparents were residents of Stari Grad on Kosmajska - so …

I will give you a fall on skype at arounf 14h00 Montreal time - I will also reach out the the Russia House - all or most Russians past used this resource and I know they processed thousands of Russian émigrés escaping the Revolution.

I”™ve attached photos of a young and older Count Rossettis and Mom”™s Canadian passport.

Thanks again - much appreciated!
Christina

________________________________________
De : Sergej [mailto:[email protected]]
Envoyé : Friday, August 22, 2008 9:14 AM
À : Christina Athans
Objet : Re: Kalemegdan documents update and new leads

Hi Christina,

Serbia knows, just as Germany and some other European countries, strict privacy regulations. The baptismal books are property of the Serbian Orthodox Church, they are required by law to deposit them in the archives but they still control who can access them. This is their prerogative, now Danica is involved in this and I think its important that you first get documents such as the birth certificate of your mother. Direct descendants do have the right for access, but foreign nationals need special permission from the ministry. Documents that have a special status for whatever reason need to be approved by a comission, in this case the Synod.

There are some anomalies in the data that make research difficult. E.g. Ivan Gregoriev Obrenovic Knezevich uses the name of his spouse as his last name. Knezevic is a normal surname that is used often in Serbia and Gregoriev is a Bulgarian/Macedonian variant of the -vic ending we know in Serbia, meaning "son of". So most likely his name is Ivan Knezevic and his fathers name if Gregor. What matters the most are their birth certificates as they are in the Serbian archives, and from what I see right now the Synod is comparing the dates to see if they match.

Birth records also state place and dates, including countries. As for the Russia house, that's a Russian institute in Belgrade, they have a site: http://www.ruskidom.org.yu/pages_sr/main.htm

The thing is, if people move and get divorced it doesn't neceserally mean that it will be registered. It is very hard to get access to Military Archives, so you can only inquire there if you have something substantial.

I have talked with my Russian contacts and he said the name I provided him doesn't match any of the data, nor does the exact name on the certificate. But he is checking the sidelines in the tree as well to see if he overlooked something. He didn't recognize the title that was on the certificate but he will get back to me on that this Sunday.

I know it can be discouraging, but you have just started your research. And your mother did erase her tracks good, so it will take considerable amount of time to find out what exactly happened 50 years ago. Also don't forget that the Communists also destroyed a lot of books and that some people were declared enemy of the state. I do not know if you have any other pictures, cards or other items that may seem important. The Polish contact you talked to seems to know more, I would like to talk with him to discuss his research findings. Russia is a very closed country, and as you may have seen on the news the current conflicts are not really contributing to a good research athmosphere.

Ill be online tonight at 20:00 my time so if you want to call me over Skype please.

Regards,

Sergei

On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Christina Athans wrote:
Hi Sergei,

I hope this finds you well!

To update you and for your Russian contact - Danica picked up the Municipality transcripts for my Mom, but had to apply for "Special Permission" to the Synod to obtain the documents from the Church. She explained she did this 2 weeks ago and it can take from 1 to 3 months to receive an answer. The council can refuse the request. She said she has never had to do this before.

Perhaps you could explain to me why this is necessary - anyone else can just apply through normal channels and get official copies. Danica thinks they do this for certain circumstances: documents of historical value or for families of certain status. She had to write a plea which will be reviewed. She made the request as a researcher, but did not mention it was the daughter requesting the information….perhaps it is better this way, or perhaps, it may have been easier to say it was a family member making the request….could they refuse this?

Below is a summary after my discussion with Danica which I sent her and some thoughts I had after our conversation:

"On the Municpality document: her Mother is listed as Natasha M. Obrenovic (Name appears to be much longer on Kalmegdan originals, but difficult to read);
Father Ivan Knezevic (Danica saw his full name on the Kalemegdan document as Ivan Gregoriev Obrenovic Knezevic).
Both listed as residents of Stari Grad. Her mother was born in Stari Grad and her father is listed as a "Foreigner".
Mother listed as a citizen; father NO.

Mommy was born under the name Darinka….I do not know the order of all her names, but I do know they included: Darinka, Dobrilla, Dobrinka, Dorothea, Catherine. My dad said she started using Dorothea in Greece (to protect her identity and it was easy for the Greeks as a Greek name). Her Greek passport, Canadian immigration, citizenship and passport were under this name). The official extract in 1967 had to have Dorothea as her primary name, since this was her legal name in Canada.

Ӣ We know the parents' names; to the extent we know my grandmother's maiden name is Obrenovic too, but we still need the Church copies to get the additional fluff right now. (a patronym if there is one)?
Ӣ Marriage records - we know they are from Stari Grad, so I assume where there are Birth records, there must be marriage records. The marriage record actually will help with the immigration document search because you will have his birth date as well as country of origin on that!
Ӣ We now know grandmother was born in Belgrade (Stari Grad) so I think we agree the next logical step will be to find her birth records and her family and so forth.
Ӣ We know my grandparents were residents of Belgrade (Stari Grad)
Ӣ Even if they were cousins and eloped, (Sergei - see below) they would have had to produce a marriage certificate to have their child baptized 'in wedlock'.
”¢ Immigration papers for grandfather - Russia House in Belgrade*** May have his identification papers: COO, his parents, nationality, military info, etc. If he was from Russia he went through there….unless he did not have to! Or other government agency dealing with immigration records
Ӣ Did they divorce? If he re-married - a second marriage certificate (if it happened in Belgrade) - who was she? (There may have been a stepmother, according to my father)
Ӣ Did he have other children later?
Ӣ Emmigration documents: did he leave the country, where and when? We have a lead that he went to London - end of war or post-war.
Ӣ He was wounded during the war - is it possible there are hospital records from 1944 or there abouts - a military hospital?

Sergei: they had a summer home in the country where Mom spent her vacations with her mother.

I need to check all the areas in Croatia and Serbia today which are called or resemble Klokocevik, Klokocevac, Kokolovic…..I deduced it was the Klokocevik in what is now Croatia and I wrote Danica because of the region and mountain there also called Dilj (Old Slavonia) and the fact that grapes are grown in that region. In actual fact; we really only need to determine the place name in wine growing regions. I know it is not far from Belgrade and now believe that it was on the other side of the river. I need to ask my Dad if it was the Sava." Danica has applied for property records for Kosmajska 21.

My father was able to give us more information, or leads to follow: he said they were first cousins and this caused a great tragedy in the family and problems for my grandfather "given his social status". He said her mother left her with her father as a young child, perhaps a baby. The families forced them to separate. If this is true, they somehow managed to marry anyway. He also said that after the war, my grandmother returned to the family country home and lived there….this is why any area growing wine with Klokocevik or similar is important to find. Also, my grandmother adopted a girl, "to replace the daughter she lost"! The child's name was Ljubica. Dad said Grandmother never re-married. Although at 86, my Dad's memory comes and goes, but to date, we have been able to use his memories as leads and they have proved to be true so far!

He confirmed grandfather was a Colonel (Pukovinik was on Mom's passport in Greece as "Father's occupation") and this is also on the information from the Greek Foreign Ministry in Athens - he also was wounded fighting both the Partisans and Germans…around 1944.

I need your help, please. I know this will be lengthy and after our last conversation (you and I), I must say I was discouraged…..I was prepared to and have paid a considerable sum of money for this research but have only this little scrap of incomplete information. I may have a colorful and interesting family, but I am only a working Mom! Is there another route I can take…are there other methods of getting information? I know Danica is working hard, but your guidance would be very helpful to us both now. Again - she is wonderful and I am grateful to her for all her efforts.

At any rate, for now, please use the official Extract I provided you with. We know the information on that is what is on the originals Danica saw in the archives at Kalemegdan. It is a legal document.

I hope you can offer some guidance - as I told you I am close to this emotionally but am attempting to look at this from a more strategic perspective! I will also write to Father Gajic at Kalemegdan today - perhaps I may persuade him in a very gentle manner to offer assistance. Feel free to chat if you need clarification on anything in this email.

Thanks so much
Christina

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Dear Christina,

I have just got off the phone with the board of director members concerning the recent email correspondence and the way this has been going thus far. I also talked with Danica about this. I have heard all sides now in this.

You have send Danica in total 675 Euros. She has been busy the last couple of months with this research and spend thus far plus minus 85 hours including travel expenses, taxes on accessing and getting documents and contacting other researchers. With this I am not including the people I contacted. As I recall Danica told you members get a discount, this is true as the fee you paid for the research thus far is extremely low; lower then that what our researchers usually charge. Alas, this is something that Danica decided on her own as she found your research personally also interesting and has spend more time on it then expected. You are right, this is a business agreement between you and Danica and from what I have heard from Danica the agreements you made with her are clear. Namely that:

1. You paid the minimum for research; this is true because the fee and hours combined with expenses are lower than the minimum wage in Serbia,
2. There are no guarantees, we cannot guarantee something will be found,
3. The bureaucratic system in Serbia is slower than in Canada, documents are not digital, it will take time and Danica never set a time limit on this research
4. You did not pay her more then she requested, she clearly discussed this with you, it”™s the other way around….

I have shown her this email you send to me and she was saddened about your reaction and criticism and didn”™t recognize any of this in her correspondence with you.
As I stated in my previous email we cannot find your mother”™s data in the archives in Serbia. There is another person in there, but the date of birth is different and so is the name. The difference in date cannot be explained by using the Old Calendar.

As stated in the beginning of this email I talked with the board members. They all agree on the fact that the there is no proof that the person Danica found in the municipality books is your mother. This poses a legal problem as we are not allowed by law to continue to extract documents with prior consent of the ministry. Since you have voiced your complaint about Danica and the way this has been going the board unanimous agreed that the best thing to do is to stop this research for these two reasons. Danica will send you the documents she collected thus far but not the official Church extract as this is not allowed.

As a SGS member you can continue to use the site and ask questions and volunteers will assist you as they can. You are free yourself to contact the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in obtaining permission to extract these documents yourself. Danica mentioned she wouldn”™t mind showing you around in Belgrade when you get there.

I am sorry this is the way it had to go, but I feel it will be better this way. The SGS as an organization doesn”™t do research, we empower people to do research but the law is clear.

Sincerely,

Sergei

From: Christina Athans [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: zaterdag 20 september 2008 17:50
To: 'Sergei Oudman'
Subject: RE: Noble calendar. Petersburg Genealogical Portal

Hi - certainly we will continue on the forum after this, but am in a hurry right now - the information I sent you on Cossacks / social structure etc. was from Russian research sources and not something I have made up, please rest assured about that.

I told Danica at the beginning: coming from the Caucasus region my mother always said her father was Cossack.

*** Important re. dates - the discrepancies are due to the Russian/western calendars with a 13 day difference (my Dad”™s Birthday is May 23, but June 6 by the Greek calendar) and the year was changed when Mom arrived in Greece to make her appear older. The other discrepancies, Danica and I discussed and we determined they were transcription errors when the information was copied from the Church docs to the municipality. If there is something else I am not aware of then we”™ll see for sure! I”™ll speak with her .

I am sorry to bother you Sergei, but I am not asking for favors, charity or good will. This is a business arrangement. I am paying a researcher and even paid several hundred more than requested to facilitate whatever additional costs may be incurred; to date have experienced nothing but delays, excuses and “I forgot” to send you info or “I forgot” to go get documents. When someone tells me I will send you the information by such a date, I do expect they will honour the commitment and not have me run after them to remind them for one month! Ergo, my impatience. That being said, I believe in Danica; I believe in her abilities and I like her as a person. I have confided in her and trust her so I will wait.

I don”™t consider this a debate, but rather a discussion and do apologize for offending anyone. I am only going from information I hear and read and am trying to verify. I am confused about your last comment though: I hope it does not mean I will not be able to retrieve the original Church documents as Danica promised!!

Thanks for the link.
We”™ll speak on the forum in the future.

Have a great weekend!
Christina