Ok.

Ethnicity of your ancestor and how to establish/confirm if the family was ethnic Serbian :

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/guide-researching-ethnic-serbian-ancestors-austria-hungary

search for village of origin or surname in Serbian Trade Association Database:

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/serbian-trade-association-privrednik-merchant-database

First names can be an indicator :

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/naming-customs-among-ethnic-serbs-xix-century

The correct spelling of the given names you listed:

Adem,  ADAM

Ostaja,  OSTOJA

Jovan, JOVAN

Kristian and Robin. -  not present/not present in that spelling among ethnic Serbs or in case of first name Robin, not present at all.

George can be  stand for a large number of first names .

Miltza MILICA

The only accurate source of the WWII victims is the official census and data from it I will post for you in a couple of days. Whether or not people in it were from your ancestors family can only be confirmed if you know their birth year and household number ie. the exact family that they were members of. 

...but the spelling of the place of origin  KOTARINI seems to be off  , because ADAM and OSTOJA LOVRIC and their children are found  in the  Privrednik database :

http://baza.privrednik.net/privrednik.php?find=lovric&field=prezime&searching=yes&search=Pretraga&t=0

listed under JAMNICA , DVOR (NA UNI)  and in that case the village name is KOTARANI  because it belonged to JAMNICA administrativelly until 1921. ,and family is Serbian.

Paperwork of ethnic Serbs from Croatia who emigrated to US (ship manifests, censuses) will in most cases list wrong ethnicity so it is completely irrelevant for establishing or confiming it.

 That village name was changed in 1948. and is now called JAVNICA.

http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/%D0%88%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0

EDIT: checked, confirmed, LOVRIC family from KOTARANI village was Serbian. They were Eastern Orthodox and you will need to research the vital records of Serbian Orthodox Church. You will need to contact both the church and ethnic Serbian associations to locate descendants of the same family.  

- name of the brother was KRSTIVOJ, not Kristian. ( clearly spelled out in ship manifest where another Lovrić passenger - MILE LOVRIĆ  immeadiately under  MIHAJLO LOVRIĆ who listed him as brother, listed the same KRSTIVOJ LOVRIĆ  as cousin )

-family LOVRIĆ lived in households number 25, 38 and 55 Kotarani (Jamnica & Javnica, Dvor na Uni municipality) according to the infor from Privrednik database and the names of the brothers you provided - number 38 was the original household, and your ancestors family probably built themselves a new house (number 55) where brothers of Mihajlo Lovrić lived with their families.

- from the official census of WWII victims , village KOTARANI: 

SURNAME-FATHER- FIRST NAME-ETHNICITY-YEAR OF BIRTH-MANNER OF DEATH- YEAR-LOCATION -ID

Lovrić( Adam) Stojan, born 1907. Serbian, killed 1943. Sutjeska (2528037013)

Lovrić (Adam) Vaso, born  1909. Serbian, killed 1944. in direct terror, Kotarani (2528037006)

Lovrić (Jandrija) Adam, born 1876. Serbian, killed 1941. in direct terror, Kotarani (2528037039)

Lovrić (Jovan) Kojo, born 1915. Serbian, died 1945. , Trmušnjak (2528037027)

Lovrić(Jovan) Nikola, born 1907. Serbian, killed 1943. , Kostajnički maj (2528037026)

Lovrić (Jovan) Pero, born 1912. Serbian, killed 1943. ,Trmušnjak-petri (2528037025)

Lovrić(Mihajlo) Ilija, born 1911. Serbian, died  1944.  as POW  Nemačka-stalag (2528037040)

Lovrić (Ostoja) Božo, born 1921. Serbian, killed 1942. ,  Šamarica (2528037016)

Lovrić(Rade) Adam, born 1907. Serbian, killed 1945. , Kotarani (2528037008)

Lovrić(Rade) Despot, born 1903. Serbian, killed 1945., Bihać(2528037012)

Lovrić(Stojan) Ljuban, born 1923. Serbian, killed 1943., Crna gora (2528037007)
 

This census is official and lists only civilian victims of war and members of the Yugoslavian Peoples Army who fought against nazis and their collaborators.  i do find people who  tell how those identified in it died of *whatever reasons during the wartime* disrespectful of the innocent victims of terror and bravery of people who fought against fascism and died fighting for our freedom .

LOVRIĆ PERO  from Kotarani ( son of LOVRIĆ JOVAN), who was a platoon commander,  a farmer before the war who joined the anti-fascism movement in 1941. and was killed in battle in 1943., is only one of the heroes of the WWII  we should  all be forever proud of. Unfortunatelly, the current revisionists of the history do not think so.

http://www.znaci.net/00001/129_20.pdf

Records from the original census of victims are available in ARHIV JUGOSLAVIJE in Belgrade, Serbia, and with ID number you can find out from the original census who their immediate family members were.

http://www.arhivyu.gov.rs/active/en/home/glavna_navigacija/koriscenje_gradje/mi_istrazujemo_za_vas.html

Records for the Jamnica parish of the Serbian Orthodox Church - civil copies of birth  and marriage records are available for the period 1872-1952 in Dvor municipal office:

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/forum/croatia/pravoslavne-mati%C4%8Dne-knjige-sisak-serbian-orthodox-church-vital-records-sisak-county

http://www.dask.hr/trazilica

  You will probably run into some problems obtaining any info or documents from them , so my advice would be - through Serbian Orthodox Church and associations of the ethnic Serbian community in the area/parish get in contact with descendants of the same family and they will give you info and be able to help with documents and family history:

FINDING LIVING RELATIVES:

FINDING THE DESCENDANTS OF THE SAME  FAMILY

-This is extremely important, as they will help you with information learned informally from their family members, with translating  what  is only available in local language, or visiting the archives and temples on your behalf . Besides surname and place of origin, they will share your patron saint.

-For ethnic Serbs, people who share the same surname and patron saint  and come from the same village are viewed as *relatives* ("rod"),  and the fact that you may not actually be directly related is not important at all .

- If they are researching the same family roots offer to share/cover the costs of obtaining the documents and travel but please do not offer a fee – if you are *family*, then that would be  considered almost an insult. Instead, make an album of photos of your  ancestors and share the story of  how they emigrated and lived  in the US – everyone likes to brag about *having cousins in America*,  and this will be a perfect gift to anyone making a family tree of their own in the old country.

CONTACTING THE DESCENDANTS

-Best if someone contacts you after you post your query on  message boards in English – you will be able to communicate directly.  Make sure you have email notification turned on to know when someone has replied  and repost your message periodically –someone may show up and respond even  ten years after your  original message was posted .

-Dialing random telephone numbers or sending out letters to everyone you can find in Yellow pages or phone directories  with the same surname  - well, you can always try that  too.

-Try to locate the facebook page of the family – most families/surnames  have a group, and post there   a warm greeting  to all your  *cousins* and ask for help in English. Contact the group administrator too, usually it is a person with an interest in family history who can help you the most.

-General advice on contacting the descendants  would be - thread carefully  – if the family  still lives in the same area your ancestors came from do not ask about their ethnicity – some people will tell you these things straightforward, but for others that may be something they do not wish to discuss or disclose.  

-For many places of origin, the descendants will not be living there today and posting on official  town pages or  unofficial blogs or forums  you can google for that town or village is not  useful at all. You need to locate the place where the ethnic Serbs who originate from  or used to live in  the place of your  interest  *hang out* on the web . Most such forums are only available in Serbian and you will need to register.   Serbian Genealogy  Society  forum will have more information and links to these internet pages and you can ask for help  to register  and post a message on  one or several of them.

-After the WWII  ended in 1945.  250 000 people (42 000 families)  were relocated  and colonized by the communist authorities to other parts of the country mainly from devastaded areas  in Croatia and Bosnia, and almost by default ethnic Serbs. You may need to research  in villages and towns to which they were sent ( Vojvodina)  to find relatives and information.

- Due to family ties, the bulk of the refugees from the most recent  conflicts settled in and around  these previously  colonized places too.

- You may need to contact the Refugee Association in Serbia  to find out  where the  descendants of the family you are researching are today.

WHAT IF THERE ARE NO DESCENDANTS?

Some  families of ethnic Serbs were during the WWII  completely  eradicated in the places your ancestors came from.  Anyone looking for information on these families  can recieve assistance from:

-  victim’s organizations like „JADOVNO  1941.” , Association of the Prebilovci  victims, Association of the survivors and descendants of Jasenovac concentration camp victims,  Association of the child-survivors of the „Jastrebarsko” concentration camp for children,  Association of the Prkos and Dugo Selo massacre victims and many more local associations tied to a specific village, concentration camp or execution place.

http://www.jadovno.com

-  authors and researchers  who have collected testimonies of the survivors and published books on this subject .  

- historical archives in Serbia

-Sebian Orthodox Church

-other people seeking information on their family members who are not listed in the official records of the victims that  were killed /taken  from the same village or on the same day.

-From my personal experience in seeking information about family members who  were victims of the WWII genocide, you  can recieve immense help from people working in state archives in the region who  can help locate the information and documents  for descendants of such families  if you contact the right person in the right archive.

***

-You will also recieve no help or even be denied  the information  from civil vital records  in many municipal offices in several countries, which they are oblidged to provide by law to the descendats . There is no way around such blatant and often deliberate ignorance, and you must seek information  elsewhere.

Hello!

1. KRSTIVOJ!  Thanks the manifest is not easy to read.  He went back to Europe after the war in 1919, according to my grandfather, married a woman from Bosnia and moved there somewhere.  I will have to do some research looking for him later after I find out more about my grandfather's parents hopefully.

2. You said, "your ancestors family probably built themselves a new house" - That makes sense, my grandfather said his father and 2 older brothers built the house that they lived in, when he was very small.

3. I keep seeing "RADE" Lovric in some of the lists, what does that name mean in English? 

4. Looking at the web site " http://www.dask.hr/trazilica ", I was able to find the following records available at the State Archives in Sisak.  Are these records I could purchase copies of?  How would they purchased?  Microfiche etc?

  Serial number: 182
  The parish / parishes / municipalities of Dvor
  Village / town: Cora, Palace, Javornik, Matijevici, small cap, field-Stanic, Uncani, Zakopa, Zamlaca
  Type of birth: MCD
  The time span of: 1808
  The time span until: 1834
  Religions: Orthodox
  Note:
  Accommodation: BOARDS
  
  
  Serial number: 183
  The parish / parishes / municipalities of Dvor
  Village / town: Cora, Palace, Javornik, Matijevici, small cap, field-Stanic, Uncani, Zakopa, Zamlaca
  Type of birth: MCD
  The time span of: 1834
  The time span until: 1860
  Religions: Orthodox
  Note:
  Accommodation: BOARDS

5. How can I find out what the patron saint is for the Lovric Family?

I hope to be able to find out more about my grandfather's parents, and what HIS real name was since he claimed he used his brother's papers to leave the country and come to the USA.

- Erich

3. RADE is a first name, male. I do not know how it translates into English, as Serbian language does not  *translate* names. From what I have seen among Serbs who emigrated to US, if they changed their first name,  they usually did not use the equivalent names ( BOŽIDAR to THEODOR) , but went with what was closest to the original name phonetically . 

4. I only posted the vital records that are labeled  *pravoslavni* - (Serbian) Orthodox. There are none listed for Kotarani / Javnica .

There are the civil vital records though listed ( copies of church vital records that were made for the Austro-Hungarian authorities and were kept in municipal offices). You can read more on types of records here:

http://www.rodoslovlje.com/en/documentation/guide-researching-ethnic-serbian-ancestors-austria-hungary

According to the website of the archive, for Kotarani is available municipal birth ,marriage and death record for 1872 - 1952 .

Redni broj: 391  - catalog number
Župa/parohija/općina: Javnica - parish / municipality
Naselja/mjesta: Dobretin, Javnica, Kotarani, Sočanica, Zut -  villages
Vrsta matične knjige: MKV  - marriage records
Vremenski raspon od: 1913 -  from
Vremenski raspon do: 1952   - to
Vjeroispovijest: Državna  -  confession state - civil records)
Napomena: redovni i naknadni upis   - note:  regular and later added
Smještaj: MU Dvor    - location : Municipal office Dvor

 Redni broj: 394
Župa/parohija/općina: Javnica
Naselja/mjesta: Dobretin, Javnica, Kotarani, Sočanica, Zut
Vrsta matične knjige: MKR  birth records
Vremenski raspon od: 1882
Vremenski raspon do: 1952
Vjeroispovijest: Državna
Napomena: redovni i naknadni upis
Smještaj: MU Dvor

 problems:

-these records are located in municipal office in Dvor. Municipal offices in Croatia  in most cases when you send an official request for someone who was Serbian only look through computer transcripts of these records into which more than half of Serbs from the original records were not entered.

- names are mistranscribed and unless you send the exact thing that is in the computer they will ignore the request ( Miailo, Mihajlo, Mihajilj Miajlo are just  four variants of MIHAJLO  I can think of off the top of my head for example ).

- they in most cases just reply that either there is no records of the person you are looking for, flat out refuse to issue any document, issue documents for someone with same surname and first name  but not the person you need, or issue birth /marriage certificate with names of parents, household number, ethnicity and religion blank.

Try to find out if the state archive in Sisak has the originals  or  ( fingers crossed) copies on microfilms that are not listed on the website, and ask one of the relatives when you find them  to research for you / recommend someone who could do that for you - if anyone is still there (highly unlikely.) .

5. Slava- patron saint of the family Lovrić from Kotarani - I will post you an answer on that after I look it up and confirm in church censuses - abt two weeks from now.  You can find out what the family patron saint was  either if you locate descendants , or in the Schematism of the eparchy that Jamnica parish belonged to.

-contact for the Eparchy of Upper-Karlovac :

http://www.eparhija-gornjokarlovacka.hr/index.php?option=com_contact&view=category&catid=20&Itemid=23&lang=en

- contact for the central archive and library of Serbian Orthodox Church in Belgrade through The Information Service of the SOC :

http://www.spc.rs/eng/contact

You will find advice on how best to contact the church if you want them to reply  in the research guide article .

- on using  the passport of a brother -  I believe we accounted for all five of the brothers so far:

EDIT: according to the taped interview with your grandfather, sons, in order of birth:

OSTOJA

ADAM

JOVAN

KRSTIVOJ (three years older than your grandfather)

your grandfather

*MLADEN ( younger than your grandfather, died at the age of 12)

from the names of people from that household  in WWII victims and Privrednik database I posted earlier. 

Thanks for all the information.  It will take me some time to go through all of this!

I do one have more question, if my grandfather stated he used his brother's birth record to leave the country, would that mean the name on the ships manifest would be his "brothers" name from that paperwork?  How did passports etc work within Austria-Hungary at that time?  I am trying to figure out if that was his real name?

-Erich

Men would take  the birth  certificate from the Serbian Orthodox Church/ town notary of someone in the family who was younger and not of obligatory age when they had to go and serve in the AU army, so that they could apply for travel permission (usually a younger sibling or relative) . I cannot confirm whether the subsequent documents were issued in another persons name without looking at the original archival records or any such original document you have. If his first name was something else he would have indicated it to the family I am sure at some point.

From what I have researched so far, people did travel under their own first names most of the time, and from what is available in the records I posted -  there was another  Mihajlo Lovrić  in the village, but he was older than your ancestor (5 to 10 years at least).

[email protected] ))

Ovo za poruke će uskoro biti bolje. Limit od tri poruke na sat nažalost važi i za članove tima.

Update :

-according to the taped interview with your grandfather, names of his siblings, in order of birth:

OSTOJA

ADAM

JOVAN

KRSTIVOJ (three years older than your grandfather)

your grandfather : MILE LOVRIĆ ( he pronounces it out clearly as a clear blue sky)  /mile/.

*MLADEN ( younger than your grandfather, died at the age of 12)

and two older sisters.

-in part 1 of the interview he says the name of the father  in his native tongue :

"it was ĐURO "   /djuro/ 

-in part 2 he says the name of the mother :

MILICA  / mil'tza/

-name of the younger sister

SOFIJA /sovija/

-name of the uncle , brother of his father, who lived in the same household , went to US and returned -

BOŽO LOVRIĆ  / bozho/ - he was younger than your great-grandfather ĐURO LOVRIĆ, and they had no other siblings living  in that household.

part 2 - he says, answering the questions about the name of the village:

...."you mentioned name ...next village"
-grandpa: " JAVNICA" ( / javnitza/
-grandpa " town ...DVOR...sounds like war" ( it does, actually )
"...and the village where your farm was..."
grandpa : "KOTARANI" ( he pronunced it : /ko'tAran/ - I put capital letter on the *A* that is stressed, and swallows the ending sound "i" (short *eee*)

- house number - you still remember that
-grandpa : "fifty five".

..."Did your family always live there?"

-grandpa : "Sure!".

-school - not in the village.

grandpa: "...I had to walk nine miles to school " . correct. Parish school was in Javnica village  ( I do not know the distance though).

-church

" was in the village , it was Orthodox, no , no not Catholic...there were no Catholics around in that place there , it was all Orthodox"  ( Serbian Orthodox Church temple that was burned and completely destroyed in 1942.  was indeed located in the village of Kotarani, and the village was populated by Serbs only) .

-middle name given at baptism - no middle names among Serbs, they were baptized immediately after birth and their baptism given name IS their first name - that is why even when *pushed* by your father, he said he did not know the middle name of anyone in his family, including himself.

(remains of the Serbian Orthodox Church temple in Kotarani)

-For reasons unknown your grandfather was clearly uncomfortable and got all fidgety when asked directly if he was Serbian or Croatian.  He rerouted the question with the defense of  *everyone being Austrian*  back then.  ( Same when he was asked about the language, I think he replied : " oh Serbia, Serbia were not down there - indicating that he was trying to convey how he was NOT from Serbia. )

*** He states that his name is  MILE LOVRIĆ - which does indeed  mean that he was maybe registered in church records as MIHAJLO - the variant of the name that was officially *acceptable* by church standards. His travel documents, issued based on church birth certificate, had that name - MIHAJLO LOVRIĆ  in them - which was then written into the ship manifest. No mention of him traveling under other persons name anywhere on the tape - he would have mentioned it for sure, so I think that any story of a different name he traveled under is about  the MIHAJLO - MILE  difference .  This was common occurrence with all first names among ethnic Serbs and their shorter, more *common* variant

JOZEF-JOZO, LAZAR-LAZO, VASILJ -VASO, BOŽIDAR-BOŽO, NIKOLAJ - NIKO, STEVAN -STEVO, PETAR -PERO, KRSTIVOJ-KRSTO, GEORGIJE - ĐURO, GAVRILO - GAVRO....

So he did remember it correctly - EVERYTHING, down to the household number. Amazing man.

All of this is confirmed by the records I posted for you earlier.   It was a pleasure and honor to listen to your grandfather tell his story.

You will be patient, I took notes and transcribed most of it, but  due to the backlog of other projects it will take me a week or two to type it out, illustrate with period photos and provide notes explaining about the life, customs, places he mentioned. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Croatia